Closed captions transcript:

00:00:03
Good evening this is the Voice of America
and Washington Worldcom front of edition

00:00:07
of Reporter's Roundtable Douglas
simple gum will talk about

00:00:12
a power addiction among African leaders.

00:00:25
And with us tonight is my colleague John
tons and John is the host of South Sudan

00:00:29
and focus program here at v.o.a.

00:00:32
Welcome to the show John it's my pleasure
to be here you're very much well come on

00:00:36
joining us from Dublin South Africa is
sort of mine I'm going to an independent

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political analyst Good evening
so my. How is double.

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Fine thank. You very much well come on
joining us from Dallas Texas is the same you

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freeze and I threw up and Sean put

00:00:55
a comment. I would have time on. My

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mind. Yet evening gentlemen to once again
welcome to the show I said out of it's

00:01:12
made for the fall of the. African
leader as far as our listeners may

00:01:19
know that for instance in Libya
kind of when I got out for

00:01:22
a few years to give up power after more
than $44.00 decades in charge of that

00:01:26
country Ontario's record of my dad the Arab
Spring came to me in Tunisia and Egypt

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the presidents were forced from power after
mass street demonstrations. I literally

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had on and I would of course

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a lot of backbone was caught up in this
terror minute after he was sworn in as

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president it's by the country's u.n.

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Back to the Truck Commission to grabbing
the survivors that we know of the Paul

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many does on the continent have amended
or attempting to amend their constitution

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stream of time limits so I want to make
some of these leaders cling to power at all

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costs let me join their culture of
impunity is what makes them cling to power

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because they have done so much. You know
they've done many bad things to their own

00:02:07
people and they're so scared that if they
go out there without the bodyguards with

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the tongs without anything there is
possibility that they will be brought to

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account and so that's one number 2
there are lots of. He didn't I gin the

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some of these leaders have for
instance the become so rich

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within

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a very short time and people wonder where
they get that money from and so they're

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also afraid that when they go out there
without the machinery of the state then

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they become powerless because all these
reduce can be stripped from them so the

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bottom line is there's something wrong that
they have done that they don't want to

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. Be held accountable for
people you agree with that.

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You know discuss. One to
cling to power for over

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a lifetime president. For 5 to little.

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In my own lifetime I remember
Emperor Haile Selassie. The name

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his own son. The crown
prince I felt what some

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and the it provided. Even though. It.

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Manifest in these terms much was
said needed and despite the needle

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a lot of crises in it. Tell you try and
solve his government to collapse and never

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want to give up you never want to tool
for. Fully even you please only hold

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in the crown prince and then came the
military. Government and just let them out

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and and then did she was.
Wanted to cling to power and

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now we have the same scenario
so I think. The problem is

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a dictator who wants to cling to power for

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a lot if. They. Want to clean

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it until it is say that I'm going to be
like my producer you know. In the case of

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Uganda we all know what the president will
say in the. Speech I think it was in New

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York that you and. The problem
of Africa is that it's it's one

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totally and now we can see that. It's

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a vicious circle and so I agree it's

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a culture. If

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if when I want to see it for the keep
it for. Yeah I think we need better

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categorize them and they say that at
the moment we have good 2 categories

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over the continent Yeah those
will. Be the concept of being

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a president as being the service for the
people using their good to give an.

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Extra talent turned into the
best guy that doesn't set

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a precedence and make life
better and then there is

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a category of The Rose who I
see. Who will take power up.

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In tension throughout decided
that to them may be due to their

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background will do to the condition of the
finder and the underground they find it

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pretty damn power mean everything I
think though that that category the 2nd

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category you know to only advocate
but could be a politically c b s

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t v Don't you know where they are today in
power means everything and at the moment

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even ready to meet you can
be done to represent. Them

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a can't see so join us on mentions them
what happened to the idea of police

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being

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a public service why you got some of the
people the in the in other areas of the

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wild or in the past people
just think of leadership as

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a service the people who are the servant
of the people that sometimes would be the

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case these days well it's not the case
these days because the concept of being

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a leader has been. Misunderstood
or rather. Put in

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a way that people go into politics in order
to loot because they see this is the

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easiest to place where you can take

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a lot of money and nobody holds you
accountable because if you look at what they

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call. Parliament that is supposed to hold
executive accountable this parliament

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becomes

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a rubber stamp because most of the leaders
there want to police the president so

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that they're appointed as ministers they're
appointed instead of Pakistan and so

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the bottom line is that people who elect
these M.P.'s all members of parliament

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suffer because these members of Parliament
go there for their own agenda not that

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end of the people and I have seen it
in my country most people who. Would

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want to of to go for politics you
see them becoming rich within

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a very short time and you
wonder even m.p.e. Even m.p.

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Salary is let's say 5000 years dollars per
month and he has like 20 people to take

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care of where does he get
money to buy $65000.00 u.s.

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Dollars and he has 5 of them on his own
Well that's a good money to put up

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a $56.00 storey building within

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a very short time so you wonder and to
me my conclusion is that people go to

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politics in order to get rich so I ask
them to what extent is corruption and I'm

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stealing

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a favorite thief I mean this idea of
stealing not national resources in fact time

00:08:10
because it has clinging onto power. Yes

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a lot of the one you know
when because. Most of.

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The litter in most countries in Africa
limits even though they pretend.

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Station. By the Constitution.

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Limits because they're
absolute dictator of.

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A country they give it to whomever they
want you know the credit patronage.

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To keep in line with their. Dictatorship
of those who refuse to be psychopaths and

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there will be limits. On that one point
or another point that we forgot is that.

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The reason that they want to cling to
power most of these dictators is that the

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very means that. They came to power
is usually by the bottom of the gun

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and then the way they maintain their
policies also by the bottom of

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a gun and then in the process you know
they call me a lot of crimes from point

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a few to step down even though in the case
of my country of one point you know I'm

00:09:34
in 2005 when you come in the
ruling party of militia and. Its

00:09:41
election and when the opposition
realize that stepping down and even

00:09:48
told them that they're not going to we chant
you know that it's not going to be any

00:09:52
of the television and because. Most
of the opposition leader really felt

00:09:58
responsible that. They wanted to keep the
country safe you know that they do want

00:10:05
the country to go in in the power of you
know. They tried to come forward they

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tried to really try to reassure them that
there's not going to be any backlash but

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you know they didn't want to fool
proxied. A defeat for they can

00:10:25
put all of now all you know all of the
consequences of Clinton for power. Sometimes

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you know when some of the city it happened
in Africa we thought we can some of you

00:10:36
can countries when. One
can put dies. That's

00:10:42
a country because they didn't have an Clift
any room for peaceful transfer of power

00:10:48
they didn't want any responsible person
pre-marriage you know in the absence.

00:10:55
Libya in the case of Libya and even some
of the African countries they're willing

00:10:59
to. Take

00:11:01
a look. Now at least 11. Elements between

00:11:09
lieutenants and his deputies when militia
and because of that point to one

00:11:16
person you don't know about him feeling
he has no part of and. For the people you

00:11:22
know. Warship. I don't really

00:11:29
mean that much but then somehow.
I mean a lot. More looks with

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a visionary leader and the prime minister
the current prime minister while I'm out

00:11:39
in the following doesn't. You know
it doesn't surprise by him you know

00:11:46
he can't even come on
the armed forces it is

00:11:49
a committee you know behind him there is

00:11:51
a committee you know and the
ruling party. Where the real

00:11:58
resides and the to the right people people
Russian folk the minority ethnic group.

00:12:04
Now we are now the emergence of
the people because they found it.

00:12:12
Difficult for you know. For
one of them to emerge.

00:12:19
And replace my legs and. They thought
they canceled the scopolamine

00:12:26
by appointing him but I think the meantime
the ones who are on the short I think.

00:12:33
Is it fair to assume that some of the lead
up. To the perception that the strong

00:12:40
leader they may be very insecure that they
think if they live power they would be

00:12:45
held to account or. Made for you because
it doesn't suit you that they want to

00:12:52
cling to power.

00:12:59
Problem themselves.

00:13:07
That last.

00:13:22
Step seem to someone. Destructive.

00:13:33
Being destroyed.

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So that the. People get.

00:14:04
Destroyed one by one.

00:14:11
Even the government. After.

00:14:20
Grumbling. About.

00:14:35
By that time. People like.

00:14:48
Mad because he wakes up on. The money in

00:14:53
a country. The country belongs to so that.

00:15:03
Destroy. The nation I think
gentlemen let's take

00:15:08
a short break on their discussion of power
addiction among African leaders. Well

00:15:15
maybe we don't need the break or less
continual but tougher than those of you

00:15:18
joining us right now we are listening for
photos roundtable and well coming to

00:15:21
a live from the voice of Michael Steele
is here in Washington our talk tonight is

00:15:25
politics and among African leaders as our
panelists John Townsend my colleague the

00:15:30
host of South Sudan in
focus the same kid from

00:15:33
a fresh on political commentator. South
Africa best independent political analyst

00:15:39
and I'm your host Douglas simple back here
in studio and I'm now joined you just

00:15:44
heard from. Slim out of there. Institutions
for the fall for you know to be

00:15:51
able to stay in power for longer than he
ought to he make sure that decisions are

00:15:56
collapsed because that would hold him
accountable. For this so you become the state

00:16:01
watchman Yes when they do talk to call it
because they know that the instruments of

00:16:07
accountability. Strong You cannot escape
them and so what they do is they are point

00:16:14
. Cronies in these strategic institutions
like the judiciary and the head of the

00:16:21
Parliament might put a speaker there
was your past and then put in

00:16:25
a finance minister who is your buddy and
put someone in charge of the military who

00:16:30
is your friend sign or brother brother
to the extreme and someone in charge of

00:16:36
national security who is your men and
so you continue ruling and these people

00:16:41
protect you because they've been defeated
by proxy they're given handouts and they

00:16:47
also enrich themselves they have their
own projects and so that this cycle

00:16:52
continues within this clinic and this is
done at the expense of the poor who are

00:16:59
suppose to get services from from
the government as they say but it's

00:17:05
unfortunate that voters you know
out are blindfolded. To $3.00.

00:17:13
During election time these corrupt leaders
go back to office and this is this is

00:17:19
this is what is happening in Africa despite
civic education despite the win is that

00:17:25
people created about people's rights about
human rights but the same people vote

00:17:31
and once they would these dictators in
the us end up being victims of I think

00:17:37
Justice and the least is just and this is

00:17:39
a sad story so gentlemen are
told to. Remember that this is.

00:17:46
So in that case that we need the medicine
so. What ought to be done now in that

00:17:52
case because. Across the continent the
number of people who want to cling to power

00:17:59
involved who are going to
succeed and some really fight

00:18:01
a 4th out of the 25005 the number is
growing you know the growth in this not

00:18:06
producing So what ought to be done
I think what ought to be done is.

00:18:14
Activity. You know human rights
defenders even for don't have to

00:18:20
respect their. Profession have to
continue to speak the truth they have to

00:18:27
credit our absolute. 0
up Absolutely not it is

00:18:34
still. It's not

00:18:37
a cliche I mean it's. A
valid statement. You know

00:18:44
experts who want to cling to power for
life but they're not totally destroy

00:18:48
institutions even quite correct
demented society they create. A

00:18:55
feudal. Feudal climate and because of
that we see that what's happening in

00:19:01
Rwanda and the old people one.
Minutes away and it's all over

00:19:08
which is not the case that we know
that we made to London's outside of

00:19:12
a one. Phylum seekers their. Preferred
because that extent these dictators you

00:19:19
know tries to wield their part and it's
very scary I think on the solution the

00:19:25
medicine is for activists to
continue. Picking up courageously

00:19:32
and to try to influence African Union
African Union. Some kind of legislation

00:19:39
against. Groups who
take power by accorded.

00:19:46
The union should also have to come up with
some kind of legislation of course the

00:19:52
African Union is also controlled by this
defenders but still you know the activists

00:19:58
shouldn't be discouraged by that they
have to continue speaking up and try to

00:20:04
influence the African Union and. Mickey to
pass some kind of legislation for those

00:20:09
school regulations for those who want
to continue for over. There is the.

00:20:17
Argument presented by. By. The
by the likes of the wind up

00:20:24
you know trying to justify you know and
trying to equate it with European countries

00:20:30
. That doesn't have that don't have you
know that doesn't have term limits but

00:20:37
these countries have. To take some balance
even though they don't probably before

00:20:43
their prime minister for their
president. Institutions had

00:20:48
a very strong in the case of most
African countries that is not. The case

00:20:55
you know they come from all the
institutions even controllable to create

00:21:00
a climate of fear in the society and.

00:21:07
Tools to do away with prison you know
all our own limits is. It's not right

00:21:15
I mean. That we have proper
checks and balances that

00:21:20
a power of any limits.
Limits you know we have to.

00:21:27
You know have to continue speaking up
against this kind of you know dictatorship.

00:21:34
That talks about speaking out by activists
by ever but they all can speak out but I

00:21:39
wonder. Which kind of. Language This is
what I understand because the Speaking

00:21:46
Out alone doesn't quite cut it. You speak

00:21:51
a different language what
do you think one of. Them.

00:21:59
What you have. What you.
Continue because what

00:22:06
is important is to reach the masses
the example of. The example in

00:22:13
Nigeria they have shown us that once
the population they feel. They need

00:22:20
to be dictators. Need to be clear about
that what we should make clear to the

00:22:26
people that there is no correlation
between us and the success of governance.

00:22:34
Only for us but. Only the
achievement within 4 years that

00:22:41
we tried to get. Some doors they

00:22:48
have not that what we have achieved.

00:22:55
In. My brain. They launched

00:22:58
a really savvy set around town. 5 guys.

00:23:07
They have said they had been able to meet
their elite in town an electric town

00:23:14
how how much do. You
need to be connected by.

00:23:25
That that enough. A leader has
to stay put that actually many

00:23:32
of them. Do something. They have
nothing to do with you're going to

00:23:38
get it I mean you've done that you don't
hear another bust out of the Government's

00:23:42
about them using your
gun you don't even have

00:23:44
a national bank in Uganda for that matter
for the money like they did that power so

00:23:51
. These dictators if they
do they come. Back what.

00:23:58
Somebody after they have lived in the country
that's it difficult to govern because

00:24:03
they create structures back to.

00:24:11
Front so you would get credit to

00:24:12
a presidential. The
Onion. Would take special

00:24:19
privileges unit but even so the country
gets breakdown after they have left so the

00:24:25
more they stay the more it will be difficult
to go to the country today that we

00:24:30
need to try to. Join the
main. Job. Go ahead bring.

00:24:38
Them on

00:24:39
a very good example about the
railway line. Making it. A railway

00:24:46
line and. You know they have
been in power for the last

00:24:53
25 years and we're not even sure
about that. And it depends on.

00:25:02
Electricity polity. You know. What.

00:25:15
I think so John maybe some of this
really does they feel that if they do

00:25:19
a lot of good things or do some development
in their countries they may finish all

00:25:23
the work so so and so they must spread it
out. Sometimes that's not necessarily the

00:25:28
case they're coming without projects
they come with their personal projects

00:25:32
personal ambitions of becoming very rich
and you know they do that so that you

00:25:39
don't touch them because money is power
and you have seen that most of the people

00:25:44
who have overstayed are very rich and they're
very powerful but I want to get back

00:25:49
to the question of using civil society to
change I am not sure whether the civil

00:25:56
society will be very very active in

00:25:58
a militarized society I'm
saying that given looking at

00:26:02
a country like South Sudan some South
Sudan is so militarized that people are

00:26:07
afraid to speak the media is working on
self-censorship because the government does

00:26:12
not want to listen to any other voice they
want the people to listen to their lies

00:26:17
only. I'm sorry to say that but that's
the truth in any alternative voice is

00:26:23
regarded as an opposition it's regarded
as you know poisonous and so in

00:26:28
a country like that I don't see this civil
society reaching out to the people with

00:26:34
a message of change and African Union are
coming to I'm thinking you know it's

00:26:38
a clash of dictators I have been saying
in my mother found that the dog does not

00:26:41
bite very hard so I don't see African Union
you know cracking down on these people

00:26:48
who are over staying in
power all we need is

00:26:50
a critical mass an elite mass that can reach
out to tell them come on man and women

00:26:56
who are voting every year to say no
don't vote this year you're voting for

00:27:00
a thief who will go and steal your money
so briefly. One Watoto do you think John

00:27:07
that this status quo can be changed
it can be changed but it needs

00:27:11
a lot of work and this has to start with
at an elite mass but the reason why I'm

00:27:17
saying that is because if you touched
that this country needs to change this

00:27:23
continent needs to change then you need
to reach out to somebody who is also

00:27:26
touched I say and the 3 or 4 of you all 5
of you in each country could come up with

00:27:32
a consortium that would you know do
something that would result into

00:27:36
a positive results because as
it is now the people inside had

00:27:41
a place so the money $1.00 word yes or
no will become this kind of stance for

00:27:44
change. So knowing that the
international community hopes.

00:27:53
You know that money can buy. No I came.

00:28:00
To my achievement on one of the
yes I know. Yeah it takes time.

00:28:08
Yeah yeah yeah but. One thing that I
would like caught a little bit of

00:28:13
a little bit about the civil society.
Completely disregard the civic society

00:28:19
because without civil society to be there
would come out quite critical much I

00:28:24
don't care if. You kind
of. May well call me no

00:28:31
pork and. We would. Want to cling to

00:28:37
power you know if you remember if
we remember. The middle of. That.

00:28:45
We had all the time of the you know thing
about public space you know I don't claim

00:28:50
Well yeah we got off to

00:28:52
a shot of me because you know this debate
that's the time we have for this edition

00:28:56
Reporters Roundtable let me
thank our panel John towns

00:28:59
a host of South Sudan in focus same key
flew an Ethiopian especially on political

00:29:03
mentor into. An independent economists based
in South Africa Gentlemen thanks very

00:29:07
much for being on the show you know what
you're welcome thank you for inviting me

00:29:11
you welcome our producer there was just one
you know engineer was John Braden we're

00:29:16
back again next week with another edition
of reporters roundtable and Amanda that

00:29:19
in case you missed any part of this program
you can see this intrigued by going to

00:29:22
our main web site w w

00:29:24
w dot venue's dot com click on Programs and
scroll down for vote on table. You know

00:29:31
email is reporter venue's dot com Thanks
again for tuning in and until next week.

00:29:36
Simple in Washington.

00:30:10
What's going on what's happening I forgot
this is Jacksonville got me right here in

00:30:14
Washington d.c.

00:30:15
And I'm not yes Sound me thanks for joining
us media love to have you on board this

00:30:20
up front on the boy said to me. Go
go well advice of American you yes.

00:30:28
You know. Regional to you

00:30:35
from the Voice of America and you'll see
when you money well I said yeah yeah.

00:30:47
In many schools across Africa displaying

00:30:49
a reaction often comes in form of corporal
punishment teachers do not hesitate to

00:30:55
use the cane slaps in whips to maintain
discipline in class students who under

00:31:01
performing class also Panish as

00:31:04
a weird to scare them into performing
better on the next exam in an education

00:31:08
system where

00:31:09
a lot of attention he's paid to performance
in standardized tests is to know who

00:31:14
falls behind his sudden grand will most
likely be punished by whipping beating will

00:31:20
slapping by the teachers now of lead to
there has been some of the bets on how we

00:31:26
corporal punishment he's in helping students
improve on this plane and academics in

00:31:32
some parts of Africa laws have been passed
to make it illegal to be students but is

00:31:37
still persists and we continue to seek
as West Indians are severely injured and

00:31:42
both physically and emotionally by the
beatings some to. And parents continue to

00:31:47
support corporal punishment they said that
this is the only way that this plane can

00:31:52
be maintained and I condemn x.

00:31:54
Improved in schools others disagree in
fact they say that such punishment is

00:31:59
ineffective and also violates international
child laws so what is your take on this

00:32:05
should be eating or corporal punishment
be banned in schools does your school

00:32:10
punish the students by beating them when
they commit an infraction older not do

00:32:15
well in school let's talk this is upfront
on The Voice of America on Jackson from

00:32:20
Daniel Washington with me in
Johannesburg South Africa.

00:32:34
In Africa generally when you are young the
best way to bring you up is to. Training

00:32:41
School either from your undies
or you. Model your father.

00:32:48
Glorious or being in

00:32:49
a man and being one in the future so
when you do something wrong the best

00:32:56
actually is to to to to long at least give
you something yes this of course when I

00:33:03
was in primary school to go to so many
of these one is that sometime you go to

00:33:08
school very late some time you know you
don't abide by this one rules of English

00:33:13
friends and the best way to go to you
is to give you some Pew kids find

00:33:18
a way how to correct them apart from having
inflicting physical feeling physical

00:33:25
injury to make them and as time that what
they're doing wrong you can correct them

00:33:30
I probably instilling maybe something else
maybe formation that can correct them

00:33:35
and help them understand what they're
doing is wrong and these would do things

00:33:40
differently you really hit the part of Fast
and punishing you don't matter whether

00:33:44
you are or not you see that is. The problem
because their time to go ahead I used

00:33:48
to hit them up was known now but I used
to hate them because the punishment they

00:33:52
would punish you and you think you're not
wrong but you see them they feel you are

00:33:56
wrong but because they don't find

00:33:58
a way to communicate to you they want to
inflict that. Or pain so that make you

00:34:04
invest time. Try you understand but you
sometimes people want to do that I think

00:34:09
anyway because. He doesn't walk. Down.

00:34:27
To.

00:34:38
The truth.

00:35:51
Had beating

00:35:52
a student for that student will be afraid
when the end of the class is that awful

00:35:57
because in trading on what you are she
is teaching you I should feel like

00:36:00
a loser beats me every day so do you what
you want was included on what is he or

00:36:05
she's teaching reading in school
even if they keep it in there in

00:36:08
a Jiffy Lube in some students one but once
you know. They told us to be beaten she

00:36:15
still could. Have caused her to
binge drinking I don't think that's

00:36:20
a very safe you talk to somebody and you
could do that just in the ways you can get

00:36:24
the things going to be able to react when
you're going to need to stop what's going

00:36:28
to come to them. No I have never been
beaten at school because when they teach us

00:36:33
trade something to me saying yeah I am
better to day when I was out there and not

00:36:40
making

00:36:40
a lot of money and said I'm getting better
when you get that idea about it but I

00:36:45
think it did and some of the programs the
girls and their job is to teach them and

00:36:50
Myrtle Beach and I'm upset
inspired mom who was

00:36:53
a friend see that to us in the conflicts
of interest which is to have those up on

00:36:58
point time from details on all 3 of you
what amounted to be consistent doesn't

00:37:03
allow you still by just
given mock freedom to be

00:37:07
a little I don't like I'm used to
talking with you is just not going to.

00:37:14
Be. My time in the world
to come up with herpes

00:37:18
a function that is so much in
dispute. Yet invented to prevent it

00:37:26
you know making

00:37:26
a little more you. Get into it when you
get. Paid and the more you put people

00:37:34
on my side that I did about
it I think you give that up

00:37:37
a few weeks ago because the job is
to ram and you have to be trouble.

00:37:47
We know that corporal punishment is used.
In schools around the continent for

00:37:54
a number of reasons most common
needs to instill discipline or to

00:38:01
to punish students fool for alleged
wrongdoing whatever the case may be

00:38:08
but we've certainly heard you
boards of young Julian d.c.

00:38:12
Being corporal punishment canings beatings
8 states for coming to school late

00:38:19
missing school without permission having
dirty with 2 in school uniforms and not

00:38:26
doing homework and this obeying
teaches the mind it's data it's

00:38:31
a state to these are just
some of the diseases and. And

00:38:35
a lot of these reasons are things that most
students would come across in the a.b.

00:38:39
Daily lives. You might be too late or you
might have missed you doing your homework

00:38:44
provided Do you think these and these are
things that happen in schools every day

00:38:49
and we need to discuss what is what is the
key to punishments being to be handed

00:38:53
out certainly be recon say that bringing
on the work will always be the best way.

00:39:01
The argument among the proper credit of the
punishments is that if you bid students

00:39:06
they will perform all the will understand
it better and they will know better next

00:39:11
time others disagree and say that this
form of education quote unquote damages

00:39:16
a student's prospects of being a well
formed adult but also in the fears with

00:39:21
a child's right to receive an education and
to be protected from violence Christer

00:39:26
know Corey is

00:39:27
a Nigerian American whose parents are
immigrants from Nigeria she went to school in

00:39:34
suburban Washington and was never on the
receiving end of any type of corporal

00:39:39
punishment

00:39:39
a the at school or at home so usually the
teachers would give the students about 2

00:39:45
to 3 warning. Things and then kind of
depending on the offense. If you have it they

00:39:51
would either kind of not let them go to
recess so they'd have extra homework. Extra

00:39:58
homework was going to. Be sent
to the to the principal's

00:40:04
office and then the teachers would be
called in to conferences so that's kind of

00:40:08
like the level of us collation sometimes
they were those the those if you did the

00:40:13
1st on 2nd time offense 3rd time offense
Yes So usually it was like warnings and

00:40:19
and if you kind of didn't pay attention
to the warnings then so it was like you

00:40:23
know recess more home or no different that
was already going to work for me I was

00:40:28
always afraid of getting really but like
for for other kids I mean it kind of just

00:40:32
depend mean you or you always have those
problem kids in class I really just like

00:40:37
don't care and act out but I feel like

00:40:38
a lot of it is just kind of like what's
being taught in just having. On the part of

00:40:44
teachers making sure that their content
is interesting to everybody and like can

00:40:48
keep everyone so there was the
option of being whipped by

00:40:51
a teacher or any school administrator for
any in front for you know never happened

00:40:56
was not part of it no not not at all not
what you were just out to understand that

00:41:01
wasn't part of the option was deaf ear at
any point that I will of play my hand and

00:41:08
that teacher might smack me you beat me
you know I mean there'd be legal rapper

00:41:12
questions to the school if that ever
happened to students and if you didn't you

00:41:15
knew that I mean I knew that that wasn't
the protocol so I mean because i never

00:41:22
happen so it did happen like write home and
tell Mom and Dad and now you know your

00:41:27
parents at home didn't spank you at all
you know I was always good company I mean

00:41:33
your parents I guess a different
approach Yeah I was I did actually

00:41:36
a different attitude too I think because
they went through that I feel like they

00:41:41
did not want to have the same approach to
disciplining their children as they went

00:41:46
through when they were young so
like with me and my brothers

00:41:48
a never was never was spankings at least
for me like they never kind of went that

00:41:53
route they usually just tell me to do
something and then I you were just

00:41:58
a good kid yeah basically group everybody
you know how to tell your side to them

00:42:03
how were you able to maintain that and get
away with it I mean what they don't know

00:42:08
can't hurt them right. You were
just too smart to quote when it

00:42:15
got to do you feel like that I'm bringing
ship to you yeah I mean I think it did I

00:42:20
mean I was always kind of
like still a total It's

00:42:23
a really Yeah I mean I think it I think it
did I think I kind of recognize now like

00:42:27
what I see at least isn't like generations
that I mean I feel like there's not as

00:42:32
much kind of respect for elders unlike
respect for parents and teachers as there

00:42:39
were in prior generations
which is which is

00:42:41
a bit alarming but for me. Kind of was like
I feel like I grew up with those values

00:42:46
of you know respecting those that are older
than you. But it's kind of unsettling

00:42:51
that there isn't that what is interesting
is that you say that in this generation.

00:42:58
Kids are not as respectful of their elders
or less display and then you were yet

00:43:05
you were both raised in the same system
well what's the difference between you and

00:43:09
them Ok I guess let me let me clarify
I notice kind of among. Was immigrant

00:43:16
families I feel like that's are as much
of an issue just because you have that

00:43:20
culture of kind of respecting those that
are older than you mean you call everyone

00:43:24
that order the new even if it's an older
cousin your uncle your auntie or whatever

00:43:28
but I feel like kind of in the mainstream
population those values aren't

00:43:33
necessarily as inherent I'm not sure
if it's necessarily due to the lack of

00:43:37
corporal punishment as it is just

00:43:39
a kind of the emphasis placed on like renting
Yeah yeah exactly so I feel like it's

00:43:45
just kind of your parenting style and
matching that to the personalities that your

00:43:50
children develop say grow because I mean
some kids are going to be slapped around

00:43:54
for them to really understand what's going
on and to actually change their behavior

00:43:58
but other kids you know you don't
necessarily have to go that route where.

00:44:08
What is the policy on corporal punishment
in South Africa where you began as

00:44:12
a young high school student Well corporal
punishment easy legal in South Africa

00:44:17
Jackson teachers do not have

00:44:20
a mandate to beat children and ease
against the no. The i've been many

00:44:26
cases we students have days the alarm
just recently revived and incident in

00:44:33
South Africa we amateur footage cellphone
footage actually has come to light

00:44:40
and students were beaten on the school
drawn by the principal and accompanied by

00:44:46
the school security guards
in the background summary

00:44:49
a fellow student was actually decoding the
beating this is causing huge opera in

00:44:54
the county and easy against the no Similarly
with patrons as well parents are not

00:44:59
in la and times of the Lol to beat the
children the problem is that in some of the

00:45:05
cases we've seen in South Africa and
school being done even though it's not

00:45:08
supposed to be done in the east will be
done and it's not just like beatings that

00:45:11
we're seeing Jackson it's beatings we young
people also. Staining C.D.'s in Judy's

00:45:17
we've seen bruising to the face
to the body. And there's been

00:45:22
a big outcry human it adds bodies are
saying we need to step up the watch against

00:45:27
this but on the other hand now teachers
are saying the situations in school are

00:45:33
becoming increasingly hard to deal with
and that today NJ is for. Behavior from

00:45:40
students in the school this has been
an issue that's been in our local news

00:45:44
a lot recently and we've certainly had
all humans from both sides. A lot of

00:45:51
tradition in this to say we're all in
the postie young people would be 10 and

00:45:56
they've turned out quite
a load I could do as

00:45:58
a means of instilling discipline but I
think the wadding fact is that in some of

00:46:02
the incidences we see it goes beyond
instilling discipline but it's actually

00:46:08
injuring children such

00:46:09
a way that it might did them all for
education that attends him away from school

00:46:14
that they don't want to come back into
the classroom they don't want to face

00:46:17
teachers because they are living in fear
and certainly that's not the type of

00:46:20
environment that you really want to have
in our schools anyway it on the country.

00:46:42
Was.

00:46:52
Going.

00:46:59
For it so your.

00:47:14
Studies. You.

00:47:22
Know.

00:47:32
It's.

00:47:43
Just.

00:47:51
That. People would they see here. Might be

00:47:57
tame to want their horses. To.
Believe that when you want

00:48:04
to somebody that doesn't feel you've done
something he also has done something

00:48:10
wrong you have to pinch

00:48:11
a beat David look I'm from South Sudan and
the culture of beating children. Child's

00:48:17
rights that. People are getting killed if
you get to look in the context of all of

00:48:23
our culture African culture.
I'm quite sure. It's not like

00:48:30
when people use beating like beating

00:48:32
a child to death you know my name is Eve I
was my. Dad I go south Sudan I do. What

00:48:39
I can say about. The punishment especially
in school for that moment. At home.

00:48:47
That it happens and not forgotten College
of not Italy I think this we have the

00:48:52
right and spoil the child came from I'm
not so sure about that is what I think it

00:48:56
came from I forgot
something like that you.

00:49:07
Tube. Julie. Julie Julie Julie.

00:49:22
This one goes both ways it depends
how you bring up my child I'm

00:49:26
a father I have 2 kids. 2 and 4
years sometimes I have to do with

00:49:33
them and you know make them my last time
and that what they're doing is not right

00:49:38
but I think also even if
you don't have to beat

00:49:40
a child for them to know if something is
wrong you can talk to them and you see

00:49:45
that if you talk to them politely it is
it it given goes far more than correcting

00:49:51
them like that beating them because you
see if you beat them you instill fear you

00:49:55
know in fear is not good especially for

00:49:57
a child grows up fearing somebody
or something that much they have

00:50:02
a vivid overtimes kind of psychological
problem so I think of punishment punishing

00:50:09
children is something which actually should
get one wished spanking is is actually

00:50:14
part of bringing up the child you know it
depends on the you know the context and

00:50:20
the culture. Consuming and when I
get back on the connection that.

00:50:30
Is trying to track. Now you have some
have argued that corporal punishment is

00:50:37
not limited to schools and that in
fact it's an extension of the type of

00:50:41
disciplinary action that many African parents
exercise at home with their children

00:50:47
when a child misbehaves they get slapped
so beaten by by anybody actually

00:50:51
a family member has the right to sue to
discipline them so I did use only doing

00:50:56
what is generally acceptable form of
disciplinary action you know African home so

00:51:01
my calling cannot fantic we were recounting
our experiences in high school he went

00:51:06
to school in I went to East to school
in East Africa where both recipients of

00:51:11
corporal punishment agrees with me that
I. This is an extension of the type of

00:51:17
display nary action or activity that many
African parents exercise in their homes

00:51:24
and so in school it becomes

00:51:26
a norm beating was part of their regular
school life it starts flag hoisting

00:51:32
ceremony in the morning where we seeing
National Anthem and right after the

00:51:39
national anthem is when they call the bad
boy self the entire school now is like

00:51:45
a morning ritual every day it's

00:51:46
a morning ritual. You know
we have homeroom teachers

00:51:53
who basically have our attendance they know
our grades and everything you know they

00:51:58
have an understanding of where everybody
is in terms of behavior and you know at

00:52:03
the end of the year they also give
you grades for that so they keep

00:52:08
a tab on you pretty much and one when the
time is full then you would be called out

00:52:13
in the morning flag hoisting ceremony and
come here and his crime would be read he

00:52:20
stole

00:52:21
a carrot from. A group Culture
Project where the student

00:52:28
actually worked. And he would be beat right
in front of us so he would be sentenced

00:52:35
to weeping like 10 weeping 15 weeping
I find something very disturbing with

00:52:39
a public whipping ceremony you know if you
like there is something ceremony you and

00:52:46
you know like some teachers enjoying the
teachers and very Here's the thing though

00:52:52
the students who are about to get that
whipping they understand it so you put on 3

00:52:58
or 4 pairs. Like

00:53:02
a winter jacket on. You know to suppression
of that so we actually did teachers

00:53:09
especially there's a unit leader
from from the teachers there's

00:53:13
a unit leader for that. For the entire
school one or 2 unit leaders was like. Fine

00:53:19
Isha she said we don't want to
say so it would try to 1st and

00:53:26
if it doesn't it gave us their expected
if it was like It's not like the way you

00:53:33
react to your heart then you need.
Your jacket. Take your pants.

00:53:40
You get everywhere and they have got and
create and over time I mean I don't know

00:53:46
how bad it is right now but I find that
school administrators have gotten very

00:53:51
creative and you know high school we had

00:53:53
a person whose job was to go on calling
from the forest did you have that person

00:53:57
that we have we have monitors class morning
talkers and usually the class monitors

00:54:03
especially when I was in elementary school
older guys you know this kids did some

00:54:09
farming or herding So they're like 15 when
they're in 1st grade so they would be

00:54:15
the monitors of like class
and actually in fact

00:54:18
a lot of the whipping comes from the
monitors they will just tell you sit down

00:54:23
straight and if you don't sit down straight
and don't say anything if the teacher

00:54:29
is not there it's them wanted to who is in
charge and they have every right to have

00:54:33
absolutely no use. For you and they want
to be the ones to go to the forest and

00:54:39
collect whips for the homeroom teacher and
the teacher says well but the problem is

00:54:45
you know these things don't last long they're
not plastics you said they're really

00:54:50
creative about it is if you in fact use
it it's going to break after weeping to

00:54:57
3 students they don't want they want it
to last year you did you read Bill it was

00:55:03
something that we're striving for Exactly
so this is some of this you know older

00:55:07
country boys that have

00:55:08
a way of making these things durable so
what they do is they smoke it so you put it

00:55:14
under

00:55:14
a chimney full. 2 weeks so when you wait
but child it's flexible enough that it's

00:55:21
not going to break and one
of my 2nd grade classmates.

00:55:28
I remember his name he had 61
whipping on the left hand and

00:55:35
yes he stopped crying at some point and
he just you know it's just just horrible

00:55:40
it's cruel I guess you know. The most
bizarre way that's their way of fighting

00:55:46
deforestation you know. But I think as
much for you know in high school as though

00:55:51
the school had a budget for

00:55:54
a week and actually you know the ones
that they used during slavery. We

00:56:01
had

00:56:02
a budget for that. To get something from you
know somebody goes to the market to buy

00:56:08
that the unit leader carries one all the
security guards in front of the school to

00:56:12
carry one so they would be like whipping
students as they go into ice not

00:56:18
a lot of. High school class there was

00:56:21
a bit of enjoyment here by the people who
had that we need for them in some way of

00:56:26
discipling students really I mean for me
it's really cruel and it's reciprocated

00:56:34
the money turned into

00:56:35
a class does exactly the same thing that
the teachers do and even some of your

00:56:41
classmates amongst one another we've become
you know violent beating someone is Ok

00:56:46
it's justified you can beat someone you can
bully someone whatever you want because

00:56:50
you know violence in a way as
I said plenty Yes measured as

00:56:54
a differently just more of my never singing
the national anthem how effective was

00:56:59
this as

00:56:59
a disciplinary measure how effective I'll
tell you what it can be effective for

00:57:04
some but mainly if you look at it

00:57:08
a lot of students in fact when they are
in high school they started rioting and

00:57:13
saying well if the teacher wants to be.
I'll beat you because now I'm old enough to

00:57:17
beat you so that was. The reaction that
most of the teachers were getting but I

00:57:24
think teachers in elementary schools can
get away with it because the children are

00:57:28
not physically you know mature enough to
challenge them and saying why are you

00:57:33
beating me so you just take the beating
and hope that more of them are not coming

00:57:39
it's sad you know it doesn't help
students learn better. It doesn't help

00:57:46
students behave better but you
know. Yes and it's going to.

00:57:54
Solve their problems by just
like. Yes treating is the.

00:58:03
Thank you very much thanks for having me.

00:58:16
Now you want to child is in school
teachers expected to act as

00:58:20
a substitute parent so one should treat
the students as if they were their own

00:58:27
and many cases the students don't feel that
way absolutely Jackson I mean you would

00:58:33
hope that your days your child and instill
the nascent city to speak for you Al

00:58:39
does and the daily food for the
classroom and the school and you feel

00:58:43
a Lynas and so it is frustrating for
teachers as well we we see teachers are

00:58:49
teaching overcrowded Closs is really they've
got sometimes $100.00 or more students

00:58:54
to across the room and or did it takes is

00:58:57
a small pocket to decide operating
for the whole day I mean the extreme

00:59:01
frustrations on both sides
but surely there is

00:59:04
a line between instilling
discipline and punishing in

00:59:07
a nonphysical way to floating

00:59:10
a child reply disposal Surely that's not
acceptable Surely that's against you.

00:59:15
Writes and Sidney and be a dad
has an impact on education j.d.

00:59:20
.

00:59:29
Thanks trying out of us today guys we
always love having you on board and we love

00:59:33
to hear from you so keep those comments
coming in to up front of you know News dot

00:59:38
com It was awesome hanging out will be here
same time same place next week I'm not

00:59:43
you saw me signing off from both Africa and
objects involved in Washington on until

00:59:49
next time good bye. This is where.

00:59:58
You.

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